Good day and happy reread-Thursday to you, Cosmere Chickens! I hope you all had a restful, relaxing week because we’re diving back into the thick of it here in Rhythm of War-land.
Our dear, grizzled, grumpy mess of a drill sergeant Teft is gone (press X for a Bridge Four salute to pay your respects), but we’re not done yet. Oh no. Not by a mile. There’s still Pursuers to take down, Radiants to save, captives to free, and Towers to liberate. So let’s begin, shall we?
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of The Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
There are no greater Cosmere spoilers in this article.
One of the rare chapters with not one or two, or even four, but three Heralds represented! Jezrien’s here for Kal, obviously. Chana could be representative of Teft or, possibly, Moash (he does see himself as the common man archetype, after all). As for Vedel showing up twice, I guess I’d attribute that more to Navani than Lift, as she barely appears in this chapter.
Icon: Double Eye, denoting multiple POVs in the chapter.
Epigraph:
For ones so soft, they are somehow strong.
—Musings of El, on the first of the Final Ten Days
P: They ARE strong. Not having carapace doesn’t mean they aren’t strong.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin; Moash; Navani
WHEN: 1175.4.10.4
WHERE: Urithiru
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
RECAP: Kaladin continues his battle with the Pursuer, finally getting him to run from him and hence winning the greater battle, that of public opinion. However, a certain jerk drops Teft’s dead body in front of him, and Kaladin falls to his knees, overwhelmed in grief. Moash instructs the Pursuer not to disturb Kaladin, but if he should rise, to kill Lirin in front of him. Then he destroys the Sibling’s final node and heads off to find Navani… who’s working on a plan to stop Raboniel from corrupting the Sibling. Navani convinces Raboniel to talk things over, and leads her into a trap.
Chapter Chat—Legends and Lore
The Pursuer searched around, likely realizing how large his audience was. Hundreds watching. He lived by lore, by reputation.
P: A reputation that Kaladin is single handedly destroying. Lore that he is rewriting. I love it.
L: If there’s one thing our boy is good at, it’s creating legends and lore.
“Has it been long enough, do you think?” Syl whispered. “Are the others free?”
…
“Something’s wrong,” she said softly. “Something dark…”
P: I wonder what she’s sensing here. The presence of the sand? Has Phendorana already been murdered? Would Syl feel that?
L: I always read this as just… Moash himself. He’s become something inhuman and dark, not just metaphorically, but in reality.
“Last body,” Kaladin called. “Come fight, and we’ll see who dies. We’ll see if your reputation survives the hour.”
P: And he taunts Lezian knowing that the Fused has to answer the challenge or be humiliated before his troops and the other Fused.
L: Keep driving that spear home, Kal.
The Pursuer, to his credit, came charging in.
P: Far be it for me to argue with Brandon, but I don’t think it’s to Lezian’s credit that he charges in. As I said, he has no choice.
L: His choice would be to run, and in so doing, destroy his reputation—a reputation which is everything to him.
He slammed into the glass of the window, and his carapace cracked as he struck. He shook himself, recovering quickly—but didn’t heal. He’d used up his Voidlight.
P: How’s it feel to be helpless, Lezian?
“RUN FROM ME!” Kaladin demanded.
L: Storms, he’s a BAMF.
P: That, he is. It started a couple of chapters ago, when he named Lezian The Defeated. Kaladin boosted his own confidence with every blow he dealt. And it continues here with his assertion that he is the storm. Just… wow. ::chills::
He did, dripping blood and shoving his way past the singer soldiers. He’d retreated from previous battles, but this time they both knew it meant something different.
P: It meant that he is no longer the Pursuer, and that he has cemented his legacy as the Defeated One. For a short time, anyway.
L: Good riddance to bad rubbish.
They began to chant, gloryspren bursting in the air.
Stormblessed.
Stormblessed.
Stormblessed.
L: If he hadn’t been a legend before this moment, he sure is now.
P: He definitely is. To run off a Fused, and not just any Fused, but the much-feared (former) Pursuer, is pretty amazing, even for Kaladin.
“We’re all children of Odium in the end,” Raboniel said. “Children of our Passions.”
“You just said we were scholars,” Navani said. “Others might be controlled by their passions. We are something more. Something better.”
L: She says, as she plots the perfect way to play Raboniel. Navani’s pretty fantastic.
P: I love this scene. Navani and Raboniel have danced around each other all this time, and Raboniel usually had the upper hand. Except for this one, very important time. I adore Navani!
Music, Mechanisms, and Manifestations of Light
The highstorm blowing outside the enormous window presented a view that Kaladin often saw, but others rarely knew. Flashing lightning, a swirling tempest, power raw and unchained.
P: I never considered this, how the humans and singers in the atrium would be seeing something of the storm that they had never seen before. It’s a powerful picture that Brandon painted in this chapter opener.
He summoned his Blade and used the tip to destroy the tiny fabrial.
P: And thus, the last of the Sibling’s defenses falls.
Navani slipped into the hallway and moved quietly toward Raboniel. After passing the crates with her carefully prepared traps, she touched the magnet to a corner of the last crate and heard a click. She only dared take the time to arm one: a painrial that filled anyone who crossed this point in the hallway with immense agony.
“Since the final node has been destroyed,” Raboniel said, “Vyre will soon return to claim his promised compensation. However, if you have escaped on your own … well, then I have not defaulted on my covenant with him.”
P: Not that Navani would have much chance of escaping, not in the middle of a bloody highstorm, but props to Raboniel for at least making an effort to give her a chance.
“What do you think to do?” Raboniel asked. “Fight me?” She turned, so calm and composed. Her eyes flickered to the dagger, then she hummed softly to a confused rhythm. She’d forgotten about it. She wasn’t as in control as she pretended.
P: While grieving her daughter, Raboniel forgot that she had left the dagger behind.
Bruised and Broken
A body hit the ground in front of Kaladin with a callous smack of skull on stone.
L: By all the gods and martyrs, Moash, you’re such a complete and utter d***!!!!
P: That, he is. And I’ve got a few more choice names for him. I mean, we know he’s cold-hearted… I know this well. We all do. But how could any person be so plainly awful as to drop the body of a man you just murdered in front of his best friend?
L: Someone who was trying to drive someone else to commit suicide could be just that awful.
P: And awful isn’t even strong enough a word for it. And I can’t use all the supplementary swears that I want to use in this article. But yeah, looking back to Words of Radiance, there’s not anything I can think of regarding Moash that isn’t just… horrible.
L: Okay, so… having done part of the reread with Aubree back in the day (who was a bit of a Moash sympathizer), I can say that I see where he was coming from in his actions then. Killing Elhokar was, to him, justified. This reminds me a bit of Breaking Bad, to be honest (some mild spoilers for the show to follow in this paragraph, if you haven’t seen it yet, skip this). You start off rooting for Walter, and then watch as he does increasingly awful things as he goes. It’s fascinating from a sociological perspective to see where the turning point falls for different people; what’s the “point of no return,” where he becomes the villain of the piece rather than the hero? I remember very well when that point was for me, and it was probably farther along than a lot of other people’s, because I’m one of those who loves a good anti-hero and adores villain redemption arcs. But for most people and most characters, there is a point of no return. There’s one thing a character does that’s so awful, so terrible, you simply can’t forgive them for it.
Now. Does this mean that a truly skillful author (as Brandon is) can’t turn it around and pull off a good redemption arc? Absolutely not. It’s possible. If Brandon manages it I’ll probably hate him for it, because it’s just so much fun to hate Moash, much as it was fun to hate Professor Umbridge in the Series-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named. But it is possible, and if that’s the direction Brandon winds up going with it, I’ll grumble about it but it’s his work and his character to do with as he likes. I’ll grudgingly nod to the skill it takes to pull off, while keeping my “F*** Moash” badge ribbons.
Interesting question for those in the comments. What was your “point of no return” for Moash? And if he hasn’t had one yet for you, what would it take?
Moash knew exactly what Kaladin was feeling. That crushing sense of despair, that knowledge that nothing would be the same. Nothing could ever be the same. Light had left the world, and could never be rekindled.
L: If you know how it feels, how could you ever, ever want to inflict it on someone else? Especially someone who you once cared for?
P: I’m frankly surprised that Moash has this thought, considering he’s given all his pain to Odium. I mean, if he feels nothing, then how does he remember despair? How does he remember what it’s like for light to have left the world?
L: Maybe he remembers from a clinical perspective and not an emotional one? It’s possible to remember events and how they impacted you, without necessarily feeling those emotions again.
Kaladin cradled Teft’s corpse, letting out a low, piteous whine. He began to tremble and shake—becoming as insensate as he had when King Elhokar had died. As he had after Moash had killed Roshone. And if Kaladin responded that way to the deaths of his enemies …
Well, Teft dying would be worse. Far, far worse.
Kaladin had been unraveling for years.
“That,” Moash said to the Fused, “is how you break a storm.”
P: I know I can be subtle and unassuming… and I may not have let on in the past just how much I hate Moash. But I really, really, really hate Moash. If he wasn’t essentially dissociating by giving all of his feelings to Odium, I would say he’s almost gleeful in this moment.
L: It’s so painful for us to see, since we’ve essentially been living rent-free in Kaladin’s head for so long.
The Pursuer formed a body, and Moash pushed Lirin into the creature’s hands. “This is Stormblessed’s father,” Moash whispered.
P: I’m not a fan of Lirin, but this is low. Moash is lower than crem. Lower than slime. I just can’t right now.
L: No one would consider me to be on Lirin’s fan club for sure (emotionally abusive @$$ that he is) but he’s still Kaladin’s family, and more importantly… he’s a doctor. He’s not a soldier, and IIRC he works to help people on both sides of this conflict. Remember how last week we discussed war crimes…
Kaladin knelt before the storm, clinging to a dead man, shaking. Moash hesitated, searching inside himself. And … he felt nothing. Just coldness. Good. He had reached his potential.
L: Only a true psychopath would feel accomplishment from a lack of empathy.
P: That’s it. You nailed it. He’s a storming psychopath.
L: On second thought (and because I remember seeing once that people are often labeled as psychopaths when really they mean sociopath), I looked up the definitions of both. Worthwhile to note that an internet search does not make me a psychologist and hence I can only draw some base guesses and not diagnose Moash, but it’s interesting to look at from a layperson’s perspective.
Psychopath, according to Science Direct, “is defined as a mental (antisocial) disorder in which an individual manifests amoral and antisocial behavior, shows a lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, expresses extreme egocentricity, and demonstrates a failure to learn from experience and other behaviors associated with the condition.”
Sociopathy, as defined by MayoClinic, “is a mental disorder in which a person consistently shows no regard for right and wrong and ignores the rights and feelings of others. People with antisocial personality disorder tend to antagonize, manipulate or treat others harshly or with callous indifference. They show no guilt or remorse for their behavior.”
On looking at these definitions, they seem very similar, so I looked up what the difference is. “Sociopaths have a conscience, albeit a weak one, and will often justify something they know to be wrong. By contrast, psychopaths will believe that their actions are justified and feel no remorse for any harm done” (Source).
Moash certainly believes his actions are justified and feels no remorse, but reading further into that third article, I’m really not sure which fits him better. Debate in the comments, chickens?
“He’s… just a man.…”
“Don’t touch him,” Moash said. “If you interfere, it will awaken him to vengeance.”
L: I hate that Moash knows him so well.
P: Yes. And I just plain hate.
There are two paths open to him. One is to take the route I did, and give up his pain. The other is the route he should have taken long ago. The path where he raises the only hand that can kill Kaladin Stormblessed. His own.”
L: Ugh. UGH. I am actually shaking with rage.
P: Yeah, I can’t read this without wanting to smash something.
“I need to go kill a queen.”
P: Good luck with that, you storming cremling. (My heartfelt apologies to any cremlings I’ve offended with this statement.)
L: Love to see him try and fail, though. So satisfying.
Oaths Spoken, Powers Awakened
Odium was interested in the Edgedancer, and Moash had been forbidden to kill her.
L: Because of her boon-ability, I’d assume…
P: Likely. And then I hate how he so callously hopes that he didn’t hit her head too hard. ::growl::
L: Seriously. Concussions are no joke, even for people with super-human healing abilities. Not cool doing that to a kid, Moash.
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, and hope to join you there! Next week, we’ll be back with chapter 106, in which Kaladin completely loses it. Understandably.
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course. She very much misses baseball and is counting the days until Spring Training. Links to her other writing are available in her profile.
Lyndsey lives in Connecticut and makes magic wands for a living, as well as working as the costumer for two of her local Renaissance Faires. If you enjoy queer protagonists, snarky humor, and don’t mind some salty language, check out book 1 of her fantasy series. Follow her on Facebook or TikTok!
Paige lives in New Mexico, of course, and loves the beautiful Southwest, though the summers are a bit too hot for her... she is a delicate flower, you know. But there are some thorns, so handle with care. She has been a Sanderson beta reader since 2016 and has lost count of how many books she’s worked on. She not only writes Sanderson-related articles for Reactor.com, but also writes flash fiction and short stories for competitions, and is now at work on the third novel of a YA/Crossover speculative fiction trilogy with a spicy protagonist. She has numerous flash fiction pieces or short stories in various anthologies, all of which can be found on her Amazon author page. Too many flash fiction pieces to count, as well as two complete novels, can be found on her Patreon.
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Beth Hamilton Gianakouros
2 years ago
I love my Thursday coffee with you ladies, but this chapter…..
I think Moash is both a sociopath and a psychopath. He exhibits both characteristics. And I agree that if anyone can write a redemption arc for him, it’s Brandon, and I believe anyone can be redeemed, but you have to WANT redemption and Moash is far from wanting it. My point of no forgiveness was when he killed Roshone and tried to talk Kaladin into killing himself. And he’s trying again! Trying to goad someone (especially someone who is depressed and so inclined) into suicide is the ultimate evil to me. It is telling them there is no hope or relief or redemption. &%@@@@@# Moash!
I am not sure when/if Moash hit the point of no return (in part because I, at least academically, don’t really have a point of NO return, although obviously, emotionally I can think of several) but for me, a lot of what makes Moash vile isn’t just that he has fought/killed people (our heroes do that too and feel they are justified, just as Moash feels he is justified) but the stuff like this – he clearly takes some form of pleasure in breaking people, and in propagating the same darkness/despair he feels.
So killing Teft on its own isn’t necessarily a no return aspect (although of course there is the betrayal portion of it), but the fact that he is doing it with the express purpose of tormenting Kal and the fact that he is actually trying to break a person’s spirit basically because he wants that person to be as low as he is…that’s what gets me. There’s a much more insidious, premeditated. manipulative aspect to everything he is doing.
If I have to throw in my armchair diagnosis, I guess that would potentially make Moash a sociopath, since he seems to think he is working off of some code of ethics? That said, this sentence doesn’t make sense to me because to me they are saying the same thing: “Sociopaths have a conscience, albeit a weak one, and will often justify something they know to be wrong. By contrast, psychopaths will believe that their actions are justified and feel no remorse for any harm done” In both cases it talks of people who believe their actions are justified. I guess it would make more sense to me if the pyschopath didn’t even bother to justify their actions, but that is not what this says.
Steven Hedge
2 years ago
I hated him when he killed Elohkar, but my true point of no return for Moarsh was when he tried to get Kaladin to commit suicide the first time. There’s just something so malicious with that kind of tatitc, and also kind of proves something. He can feel sadistic glee when he’s hurting people. So the idea that he has no “emotions” any more is clearly false. Odium seemed to have taken all of the things that make us human, remorse, guilt, pain, things we need to feel in order to understand and get better. He’s a literal husk of a man now. it really depends on what he does next, since we don’t see him after he gets blinded and escapes.
Thankfully Navani finally realized how to beat someone who was smarter, stronger and can counter your every move before you make the move and will have already planned his/her next several moves: do the unexpected and punch your opponent in the face. (For those of you who have read WoT, you will know that my way to beat a smarter opponent is not original. I give complete credit to something a character said in The Gathering Storm (a book, I might add, co-written by Brandon)).
Based on the definitions of psychopath and sociopath that Lyndsey quoted, I do not think Moash fits either definition. Per the quoted definitions, both are a type of mental disorder. I do not think Moash has a mental disorder. He just chooses to act the way he does. A mental disorder is not a choice; it is biological.
It’s funny … to me, this chapter is entirely Raboniel walking into the trap. All the rest of it is unimportant, because it either was so foreshadowed I expect it, or is the leadin to a better, more intense version in later chapters. Just my idiosyncratic reaction.
Gilphon
2 years ago
One of my discoveries on re-reading was that Moash was always a jerk- he spends most of Way of Kings mocking Kaladin’s attempts to give the Bridgemen hope, in a way that’s distinct most the simple despair that most of them are in. And while he does eventually give Kaladin his loyalty, he’s the last to do so, and remains the most willing to disrespect Kaladin.
Which is why Kaladin likes him in Words of Radiance; he appreciates the point of view of someone who isn’t blindly loyal but agrees with on stuff like how bad the Lighteyes are. Which isn’t unreasonable at that point, but we’re left with a guy who was bitter and cruel as a matter of his basic personality even before he does anything actually bad- he was never what I’d call likeable or even well-intentioned.
That’s a bit buried on your first read because the general narrative arc looks like ‘jerk who doesn’t believe in the protagonist but is slowly won over by him’, and that’s not a character type we’re used to turning out to be actually bad, but knowing where Moash is going, he actually changes less than you’d think.
All this to say that in retrospect, Moash was never worth cheering for, and only seemed like he was because he was powerless
Yeah, this. I’m rereading WOK the first time since reading ROW, and reading it to my 12 year old daughter at that. So I’ve picked up some of the stuff that becomes obvious only after reading ROW. Moash was always an ass, and seemed to just be as into Kal in WOR as he did simply because we expected him to be, and in fact since WOR has obviously been going down a completely different path
In fact, I was going to post last week, about my reread but had no time. TEFT was the first to believe in Kal, and always was one of the strongest and best supporters of Bridge 4. Teft ,
I agree. I was thinking along similar lines. Remembering my own recent reread, I realized Moash was never one of my favorite characters.
Dee
2 years ago
X
I must be the only one here who doesn’t hate Moash. While I am not a fan of his, his attempts to make Kaladin kill himself or give up his pain to Odium makes me wonder what he knows that I don’t know. Why is he so convinced that Kaladin is the only one who can kill Kaladin?
Nina
2 years ago
X.
I found it interesting that Moash chose Lirin as a hostage rather than Hesina. The parent Kal gets into an argument with every time they meet, rather than the one he actually gets along with. I’m trying to remember whether he knows about the tension between the two men.
Moash has been distasteful almost from the start. We had a moment where he seemed the victim with good reasons to want revenge and then…he started down the path of no return. It isn’t only the way to redemption that starts with the next step.
Also, a fun fact – back when Rhythm of War came out, Brandon wrote in his newsletter his favorite/hardest chapters from each part. I had already returned my copy to the library when it came out so I couldn’t refer to it, so I kept referring to it during the re-read.
Anyway, this chapter was his most difficult chapter to write in this part, and this sequence (through chapter 110) he says was his favorite and something he’s had planned out for a decade.
Gaz
2 years ago
X
My point of no return with M**** was when he killed Jezrien in Oathbringer. At that point he’s had his revenge on Elhokar, he’s done the killing that was justified in his mind – and then he takes it a step further. He willingly gives himself up to Odium to be used as a killing tool, pointed at whoever needs killing. That’s when he actively quits taking responsibility for his actions, gives up on doing better, gives up on redemption. If he doesn’t want it for himself, why should I want it for him?
He’s a jackass who killed the greatest king Roshar has ever known because he couldn’t be bothered making the right decisions for himself. He’d be pathetic if his actions weren’t so devastating.
I was so glad when Navani clapped back at his weak ass.
I get the newsletter now, but I didn’t then. Thanks for posting that, @Lisamarie.
I have criticisms of the book, but man, that’s one hell of an ending.
All the SA books seem to end with a Radiant taking an oath. Any bets on how KoWaT ends? Kaladin’s fifth? Szeth’s fourth? Dalinar’s fourth? Navani’s second? Shallan’s fourth? All of the above?
The Sanderlanche in Book Ten is going to be something.
I love how Kaladin transforms The Pursuer into The Defeated One. Once Kaladin has had a chance to analyze his opponent, he sure knows how to get under their skin. He did it to Szeth at the end of WoR (Are you questioning if Windrunners are back? let me be the most Windrunnery Windrunner that ever Windran) and to Amaram at the end of Oathbringer (So, why then do you still hurt?). Lezrien now gets that treatment.
@12 Nina,
I think Kaladin spoke about his father during the early, formative days of Bridge Four, about how honorable he thought he was. The only time I remember Kaladin speaking about Hesina was to Shallan in the chasms, when they were trying to be lighthearted and witty with each other. I doubt Moash heard much about Kaladin’s closeness to his mother, just his father.
@15 Gaz,
Good point about Moash. Interesting that Moash seems to voluntarily be going down the assassin route and giving away his responsibility for his actions, while Szeth is heading away from that. I honestly hated Szeth for knowing what he did was wrong but doing it anyway because rock. Moash doesn’t even care.
Kaladin uses psychology to defeat the Pursuer. Moash uses psychology to defeat Kaladin. Why is it great if Kaladin does it but bad if someone does it to him?
LadyRian
2 years ago
@18 birgit Because there is a vast difference between what Kaladin does and what Moash does. Kaladin is fighting to stop a killer, a murderer of innocents who prides himself on killing. Moash tries to push a former friend and ally, a good man who helps people, into killing himself.
The use of psychology isn’t the problem, but the goals and means are.
Aeshdan
2 years ago
The point where I felt certain that Moash was beyond redemption is in another few chapters, at the end of Chapter 111. Navani has bonded the Sibling and has just driven Moash from the Tower. And then we get this bit from Moash’s perspective.
“Teft, I…” He couldn’t say it. The words wouldn’t form. He wasn’t sorry for what he had done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel. He didn’t want this pain. He deserved it, yes, but he didn’t want it.
Up to that point, Moash might possibly have repented of his sins and sought redemption as Dalinar did. But here, he is given that option and he just about explicitly states that he’ll never accept it. For Moash to be redeemed, he would have to face his sins, acknowledge how inexcusable they were, and he isn’t willing to do that.
Sevily13
10 months ago
Regarding the sociopath/psychopath diagnosis being a medical condition and Moash acting on his choices and thus not fitting either diagnosis. I would argue that when Moash makes the choice to give his emotions over to Odium and no longer feel the guilt/shame etc anymore, he becomes a psychopath as a result of his bonding to Odium. However prior to that moment where he gives himself over/becomes Vyre, he still has those feelings of shame and awareness that he has been making the wrong choices, and is twisting himself around to justify everything he has done to himself. After becoming Odium’s creature, he no longer makes justifications.
I love my Thursday coffee with you ladies, but this chapter…..
I think Moash is both a sociopath and a psychopath. He exhibits both characteristics. And I agree that if anyone can write a redemption arc for him, it’s Brandon, and I believe anyone can be redeemed, but you have to WANT redemption and Moash is far from wanting it. My point of no forgiveness was when he killed Roshone and tried to talk Kaladin into killing himself. And he’s trying again! Trying to goad someone (especially someone who is depressed and so inclined) into suicide is the ultimate evil to me. It is telling them there is no hope or relief or redemption. &%@@@@@# Moash!
I am not sure when/if Moash hit the point of no return (in part because I, at least academically, don’t really have a point of NO return, although obviously, emotionally I can think of several) but for me, a lot of what makes Moash vile isn’t just that he has fought/killed people (our heroes do that too and feel they are justified, just as Moash feels he is justified) but the stuff like this – he clearly takes some form of pleasure in breaking people, and in propagating the same darkness/despair he feels.
So killing Teft on its own isn’t necessarily a no return aspect (although of course there is the betrayal portion of it), but the fact that he is doing it with the express purpose of tormenting Kal and the fact that he is actually trying to break a person’s spirit basically because he wants that person to be as low as he is…that’s what gets me. There’s a much more insidious, premeditated. manipulative aspect to everything he is doing.
If I have to throw in my armchair diagnosis, I guess that would potentially make Moash a sociopath, since he seems to think he is working off of some code of ethics? That said, this sentence doesn’t make sense to me because to me they are saying the same thing: “Sociopaths have a conscience, albeit a weak one, and will often justify something they know to be wrong. By contrast, psychopaths will believe that their actions are justified and feel no remorse for any harm done” In both cases it talks of people who believe their actions are justified. I guess it would make more sense to me if the pyschopath didn’t even bother to justify their actions, but that is not what this says.
I hated him when he killed Elohkar, but my true point of no return for Moarsh was when he tried to get Kaladin to commit suicide the first time. There’s just something so malicious with that kind of tatitc, and also kind of proves something. He can feel sadistic glee when he’s hurting people. So the idea that he has no “emotions” any more is clearly false. Odium seemed to have taken all of the things that make us human, remorse, guilt, pain, things we need to feel in order to understand and get better. He’s a literal husk of a man now. it really depends on what he does next, since we don’t see him after he gets blinded and escapes.
Thankfully Navani finally realized how to beat someone who was smarter, stronger and can counter your every move before you make the move and will have already planned his/her next several moves: do the unexpected and punch your opponent in the face. (For those of you who have read WoT, you will know that my way to beat a smarter opponent is not original. I give complete credit to something a character said in The Gathering Storm (a book, I might add, co-written by Brandon)).
Based on the definitions of psychopath and sociopath that Lyndsey quoted, I do not think Moash fits either definition. Per the quoted definitions, both are a type of mental disorder. I do not think Moash has a mental disorder. He just chooses to act the way he does. A mental disorder is not a choice; it is biological.
Regards,
Andrew
It’s funny … to me, this chapter is entirely Raboniel walking into the trap. All the rest of it is unimportant, because it either was so foreshadowed I expect it, or is the leadin to a better, more intense version in later chapters. Just my idiosyncratic reaction.
One of my discoveries on re-reading was that Moash was always a jerk- he spends most of Way of Kings mocking Kaladin’s attempts to give the Bridgemen hope, in a way that’s distinct most the simple despair that most of them are in. And while he does eventually give Kaladin his loyalty, he’s the last to do so, and remains the most willing to disrespect Kaladin.
Which is why Kaladin likes him in Words of Radiance; he appreciates the point of view of someone who isn’t blindly loyal but agrees with on stuff like how bad the Lighteyes are. Which isn’t unreasonable at that point, but we’re left with a guy who was bitter and cruel as a matter of his basic personality even before he does anything actually bad- he was never what I’d call likeable or even well-intentioned.
That’s a bit buried on your first read because the general narrative arc looks like ‘jerk who doesn’t believe in the protagonist but is slowly won over by him’, and that’s not a character type we’re used to turning out to be actually bad, but knowing where Moash is going, he actually changes less than you’d think.
All this to say that in retrospect, Moash was never worth cheering for, and only seemed like he was because he was powerless
@Gilphon at comment 6.
Yeah, this. I’m rereading WOK the first time since reading ROW, and reading it to my 12 year old daughter at that. So I’ve picked up some of the stuff that becomes obvious only after reading ROW. Moash was always an ass, and seemed to just be as into Kal in WOR as he did simply because we expected him to be, and in fact since WOR has obviously been going down a completely different path
In fact, I was going to post last week, about my reread but had no time. TEFT was the first to believe in Kal, and always was one of the strongest and best supporters of Bridge 4. Teft
, 
First, X. /respect
Second, point-of-no-return was when he started trying to incite Kaladin to suicide.
Third, both? Both. Yes, both.
XXXX!!!
@6, 7
I agree. I was thinking along similar lines. Remembering my own recent reread, I realized Moash was never one of my favorite characters.
X
I must be the only one here who doesn’t hate Moash. While I am not a fan of his, his attempts to make Kaladin kill himself or give up his pain to Odium makes me wonder what he knows that I don’t know. Why is he so convinced that Kaladin is the only one who can kill Kaladin?
X.
I found it interesting that Moash chose Lirin as a hostage rather than Hesina. The parent Kal gets into an argument with every time they meet, rather than the one he actually gets along with. I’m trying to remember whether he knows about the tension between the two men.
Moash has been distasteful almost from the start. We had a moment where he seemed the victim with good reasons to want revenge and then…he started down the path of no return. It isn’t only the way to redemption that starts with the next step.
Also, a fun fact – back when Rhythm of War came out, Brandon wrote in his newsletter his favorite/hardest chapters from each part. I had already returned my copy to the library when it came out so I couldn’t refer to it, so I kept referring to it during the re-read.
Anyway, this chapter was his most difficult chapter to write in this part, and this sequence (through chapter 110) he says was his favorite and something he’s had planned out for a decade.
X
My point of no return with M**** was when he killed Jezrien in Oathbringer. At that point he’s had his revenge on Elhokar, he’s done the killing that was justified in his mind – and then he takes it a step further. He willingly gives himself up to Odium to be used as a killing tool, pointed at whoever needs killing. That’s when he actively quits taking responsibility for his actions, gives up on doing better, gives up on redemption. If he doesn’t want it for himself, why should I want it for him?
He’s a jackass who killed the greatest king Roshar has ever known because he couldn’t be bothered making the right decisions for himself. He’d be pathetic if his actions weren’t so devastating.
I was so glad when Navani clapped back at his weak ass.
I get the newsletter now, but I didn’t then. Thanks for posting that, @Lisamarie.
I have criticisms of the book, but man, that’s one hell of an ending.
All the SA books seem to end with a Radiant taking an oath. Any bets on how KoWaT ends? Kaladin’s fifth? Szeth’s fourth? Dalinar’s fourth? Navani’s second? Shallan’s fourth? All of the above?
The Sanderlanche in Book Ten is going to be something.
X
I love how Kaladin transforms The Pursuer into The Defeated One. Once Kaladin has had a chance to analyze his opponent, he sure knows how to get under their skin. He did it to Szeth at the end of WoR (Are you questioning if Windrunners are back? let me be the most Windrunnery Windrunner that ever Windran) and to Amaram at the end of Oathbringer (So, why then do you still hurt?). Lezrien now gets that treatment.
@12 Nina,
I think Kaladin spoke about his father during the early, formative days of Bridge Four, about how honorable he thought he was. The only time I remember Kaladin speaking about Hesina was to Shallan in the chasms, when they were trying to be lighthearted and witty with each other. I doubt Moash heard much about Kaladin’s closeness to his mother, just his father.
@15 Gaz,
Good point about Moash. Interesting that Moash seems to voluntarily be going down the assassin route and giving away his responsibility for his actions, while Szeth is heading away from that. I honestly hated Szeth for knowing what he did was wrong but doing it anyway because rock. Moash doesn’t even care.
Kaladin uses psychology to defeat the Pursuer. Moash uses psychology to defeat Kaladin. Why is it great if Kaladin does it but bad if someone does it to him?
@18 birgit
Because there is a vast difference between what Kaladin does and what Moash does.
Kaladin is fighting to stop a killer, a murderer of innocents who prides himself on killing.
Moash tries to push a former friend and ally, a good man who helps people, into killing himself.
The use of psychology isn’t the problem, but the goals and means are.
The point where I felt certain that Moash was beyond redemption is in another few chapters, at the end of Chapter 111. Navani has bonded the Sibling and has just driven Moash from the Tower. And then we get this bit from Moash’s perspective.
Up to that point, Moash might possibly have repented of his sins and sought redemption as Dalinar did. But here, he is given that option and he just about explicitly states that he’ll never accept it. For Moash to be redeemed, he would have to face his sins, acknowledge how inexcusable they were, and he isn’t willing to do that.
Regarding the sociopath/psychopath diagnosis being a medical condition and Moash acting on his choices and thus not fitting either diagnosis. I would argue that when Moash makes the choice to give his emotions over to Odium and no longer feel the guilt/shame etc anymore, he becomes a psychopath as a result of his bonding to Odium. However prior to that moment where he gives himself over/becomes Vyre, he still has those feelings of shame and awareness that he has been making the wrong choices, and is twisting himself around to justify everything he has done to himself. After becoming Odium’s creature, he no longer makes justifications.